在“圣经”研究了一个有趣的话题，我参加今晚的挑战我的一个长期的信念。 虽然我认为这是一个相当普遍的信念，我显然是在“圣经”的研究相信它的人只有一个。 出于这个原因，我寻思它颇有几分今天晚上，虽然我并不打算改变我的看法，我不知道其他人可能有什么看法。
引发讨论的通道，是詹姆斯4:13-17：
13听，你人说，“今天或明天，我们将继续这样或那样的城市，在那里住一年，进行业务和赚钱。”14为什么，你不知道明天会发生什么。 你的生活是什么？ 你是1雾气，出现了一小会儿，并随后消失。15相反，你应该到说，“如果是上帝的旨意，我们将生活和做这做那。”16由于这是，你吹嘘和炫耀。 凡这样夸口都是恶。17任何人，那么，谁知道好，他应该做的事，并没有做到这一点，罪过。
具体来说，第17节的诗句，引发了讨论：“任何人，那么，谁知道好，他应该做的事，并没有做它，罪过”
就个人而言，我几乎总是认为，基督要求我们放弃一切，我们把它给穷人，这意味着最终给他。 然后，结合上面的经文，导致的结论是，不放弃拥有的一切，本身就是一种罪，我相信。 这是我的圣经研究的朋友似乎挣扎，他们不相信，它必然是一种罪过，以保持自己的任何物质财富。 他们没有看到任何与存储或消耗比他们真正需要的错。 他们似乎认为，它有可能是“完全圣洁”（无罪的一段时间），同时还拥有超过生活必需品，而不是放弃一切穷人。
诚然，作为人类，我们有需求，但神要我们来，我们需要他，并告诉我们，他会为我们提供。 马太福音4:1-4如下：
1耶稣被圣灵带领到受魔鬼的试探沙漠。禁食四十天四十夜后，他饿了3试探来，对他说，“如果你是神的儿子，告诉这些石头变成食物。“
4耶稣回答说，“这是写：”人不能在面包上独自生活，但每一个字，从神的口中“”
耶稣的反应并不意味着我们应该拒绝吃它只是意味着食品是不是在我们生活中最重要的事情。 相反，上帝是最重要的，使我们的需要，他总是会确保他们得到满足，不管他们是。 我相信我们是最接近上帝，我们自我牺牲时，我相信，给我们穷人的一切可能消除杂念，我们在我们的生活，让我们花时间与他的最好方式。 很明显，我们更接近上帝，在需要的时候，为什么是如此难以把握上帝的概念，要求我们倾其所有，以消除明显的分心呢？
我意识到这是一个漂亮的不切实际的要求，但什么基督叫我们这样做是不是由世界的标准不切实际？ 基督呼召我们是完美的，因为他是完美的。 在耶稣的话，马太福音5:43-48如下：
43“你听说过，有人说，”爱你的邻舍，恨你的敌人。“44但我告诉你：爱你的敌人，并祈祷那些谁迫害你，45，你可能会在天上你的父亲的儿子。 他使他的太阳上的邪恶和良好的上升，和发送的正义和不义的雨。46如果你爱那些爱你，你会得到什么奖励？ 甚至不收税这样做呢？47，如果你迎接你的兄弟，你在做什么比别人多？ 就是外邦人不也是这样做呢？48条完美的，因此，像你们的天父是完美的。
年底的这段话读“完美的，因此，像你们的天父是完美的。”如果我们有任何的“奢侈品”（意思是什么，我们并不真正需要的或有潜力的注意力从神我们在我们的生活） ，我相信我们打电话给这些远离，使我们可以力求完美，如同基督是完美的。 基督没有什么比他更需要，并要求我们做同样的。
那么，为什么不是我起床自己放弃我的一切吗？ 因为我缺乏信心。 因为我永远都不会是完美的，像耶稣。 虽然，我认为这个主题，我想放弃自己，我任何物质财富和利益。 我真的相信耶稣已经打电话给我，放弃我的一切。
那么，这里有我对你的问题：
- 你相信你会更接近上帝，如果你有较少的物质财富？ 为什么或为什么不呢？
- 你相信耶稣叫你放弃所有的物质财富？
- 你相信耶稣呼吁所有基督徒放弃所有的物质财富？
- 你相信，它有可能是“完全圣洁”（没有罪）不放弃你所拥有的一切呢？
随时回答这些问题或没有，但我很感兴趣的主题思想。 请让我知道在评论！
我是一个生硬的人 - 所以这里是一个生硬的回答：你的朋友是错误的。 虽然我敢肯定，他们的意图是好的，更多的物质财富，我们有我们自己从神。 我觉得什么巩固对我来说最是这样的：“什么是你的生活吗？”这是最钝的，我曾经在圣经读的问题之一。 真的，谁真正给出了一个关于乔什 - 卡尔的废话？ 总是会有地球上的每个人比我更重要的东西 - 上帝是唯一免税的因素。 我真的相信我，你，我们是最重要的事情（S）给他。
这是没有罪，过着奢华的生活，比它是想你的邻居有热水浴缸。 罪就是罪。 我觉得你的朋友正在做什么，我们都做了最 - 找借口。 他们试图率领一个良好的生活，其实，我们都是。 省下来的钱或更多的物质财富没有“感觉”像它阻止我们接近上帝，但你怎么能真正知道，除非你已经被困在沙漠中，没有任何40天你的注意力从神？ 我倾向于相信基督的教诲 - 谁没有比别人更何况 - 谁做。
因此，它是索取？ 我说祝你好运，先生。 我知道我将永远不会实现这一目标 - 这是一种罪过，我不能（从头说 - “不会”）的变化 - 但神的恩典是理解和宽容......你的想法是正确的。 当然，所有人都有权给他们，但我认为有些人试图证明罪，当它真的不能自圆其说。 我可以尝试填补每一个罪的理由与谎言（你甚至）我的头 - 但真的，那是告诉上帝“EFF关”，你不需要他的恩典或耶稣的牺牲。
谢谢，乔希。 我明白了，我有一个更大的趋势，比大多数人标签作为一种罪过几乎一切，只是因为它不是耶稣完美的。 我仍然无法真正看到它的任何其他的方式，虽然。 这听起来像你来自哪里，以及...
嗯，我可以停止给玩具和买里斯东西？......
不！ :)享有正如上帝祝福我们，给我们的礼物。
我不认为我们有很多的事情分心，我们真的不需要。 我认为其罪恶。 也许吧。 但它是一种罪恶，享受别人礼物给你？ 它是一种罪过享受上帝赐给我们的祝福呢？ 我不认为如此。 我觉得上帝喜悦看到我们玩得开心。 他喜欢给我们的礼物。 但是，如果这份礼物变得比送礼更重要的，我们知道真正的送礼（上帝），然后我们犯罪。
（我找借口，使它看起来像我没有犯罪？）没有，我知道我是个罪人。 我知道我有事情，我真的不需要。 我同意，我要摆脱他们，但我保持未来的原因，为什么我需要他们！ LOL :)罪人！
让里斯玩具和我们的男婴，琥珀，买东西给，当然，绝不是一种罪过。 我也不相信这是一种罪过享受上帝已经给你（从神来的所有礼物），但往往是最好的方式来享受一份礼物送人的礼物！ 我相信上帝给我们的礼物，他打算为我们赠送他人，如金融祝福所有的时间。 不幸的是，我不相信我们认识到这一点我们应该经常接近。 你会同意吗？
我认为重要的是，我们不要浪费我们的钱，自私，但我们祈祷，祈求上帝他要我们用它做什么。 我觉得一个很好的问题要问自己之前，你花钱是，“我们用它来造福上帝和其他人呢？ “如果你出去吃人，为了见证他们的发展与他们的关系。 我不认为这是犯罪。 如果你买一个漂亮的吉他，可以导致崇拜和帮助其他人享受崇拜，我不认为这是犯罪。 我想这是你做，你有什么或你所得到的态度。 这不是我们的，这是上帝的。 当对象变成了“我们”和我们在它消耗的，那就是当它成为一种罪过。 我觉得这是很容易分心。 我们需要不断努力确保我们有一个与我们所拥有的东西，虔诚的态度。 这是一个工具，你可以用它来提高神的国度，或它是一个玩具，将注意力从你生活圣洁敬虔的生活吗？
没错。 我同意。 但我怕我们买的“奢侈品”，绝大多数都是我们的，而不是神的。 很少，我们花的钱在我们真正使用主...
我知道，我并不是说我们没有犯罪的...对我来说，它大多数是我里斯买东西。 （和一些其他的东西）。 我认为我们应该有一个车库出售和出售一切免费！ 或把价格和更大的东西上的钱给穷人。 你觉得呢？ 我们应该通过我们的东西，决定了我们需要摆脱。 没有，我们没有摆脱我们家的狗！ （只要你知道）
LOL ...一定...为什么不。 假设，我们可以找到时间去通过我们的东西......
但是......如果我们造成其他人犯罪？放弃我们的东西吗？
;)
有趣的一点...但我敢肯定，当耶稣医治的人，有时这些人走了出去，并用他们的新愈合的机构罪。 它发生。
只是因为人们使用罪的礼物并不意味着我们造成他们犯罪。 他们的罪恶，是自己和上帝之间，为他们的罪孽，我们是不是有罪。
诚然，如果我们知道某人有一个互联网上的赌博问题，我们或许不应该给他们一台能上网的电脑...
令人鼓舞的是我，你想一想耶稣要求人做深入。 当经文得到揶揄着这么多的当代问题，金钱，财富，同情和分布的主题都仍然非常相关，2000年以后。
耶稣警告人的追求和积累财富和物质的商品，取代与神和我们所爱的人，包括我们甚至不知道，被称为爱的人的关系。 我们要小心，我们如何想了解我们如何生活以及如何我们根据耶稣所树立的榜样，给的。
你要想到耶稣，他的话，他的行动中，在经文中描述的文化和历史背景。 到这一点，希伯来人的生活已较伊斯兰教教法传统的法律。 这是有道理的，认为作为一个更大的文化地理区域的一部分。 因此，这是什么意思？ 忠实的 人，他 们坚持法律判断，与他们互动，以及他们如何表现，根据信的法律，而不是其精神 。 眼以眼还眼，以牙还牙。 耶稣来到一个非常激进的信息，而合法的希伯来和公民（履行的talmudic法律，甚至服从罗马占领）被称为人类，不管他们是犹太人，外邦人，罗马人或任何人有慈悲。
那么如何影响当代基督徒耶稣的呼叫放弃一切，跟随他的方式？ 如何工作时，我们需要一定的要领，只是为了生存？ 在我们的社会，文化，我们同意人们应该谋生，住在合适的住房，温饱自己和家人，给他们的教会，推动神的工作。 我不认为这个协议是对耶稣要我们做他的追随者。 他的消息更包罗万象的意思是，我们需要分享我们所拥有的与那些需要自由和含情脉脉地做到这一点。 我们不应该期望要跟随基督的重大奖励。
已经弥漫在欧洲的封建时代以来的西方社会有一个奇怪的态度。 有人认为，如果一个人是一个很好的基督徒，并遵循“圣经”，上帝会保佑你大不相同。 这种态度与北方文艺复兴后的中产阶层的崛起，进一步发展到清教徒的工作伦理，然后进口到美国的殖民地。 你可以看到，这已经超出什么可能被认为是合理的，通过颁布的“繁荣福音”或那些断章取义雅比斯的祷告耶稣的教诲。 我相信耶稣会感到沮丧和不协调的，他的人会寻求材料的祝福，只是因为他们认为他们正在做他的工作！ “你看，我是一个好基督徒，现在给我想要的！”
在我看来，忽视他人的费用和积累的财富和权力的追求是真正的罪恶。 记住，耶稣承销他的部富裕的朋友。 他爱这些人，称他们是他的弟子。 这些人来到他们的财富，针对性和公平，他们周围的人是用来做神的工作方式，喂养饥饿的关于同情，帮助生病，教别人。 耶稣要求跟随他的富人的反应是有见地。 在剥离他的财富，并按照他的人说，耶稣理解摇摆，人的生命的物质方面的控制，他和他分开什么是重要的人力和连接到神。 是它是更容易骆驼穿过针的眼，比财主进天国呢？ 我们可以生活不奢侈，做上帝的工作吗？
按照这一思路，平衡你的生命永远铭记。 工作求生存，做的工作是好的，追求那些东西，是对大家都有好处。 在牺牲你爱的人需要我们的爱和其他人不追求自己的财富和奢华。 最重要的是，不要失去你的财富和资源如何，无论是有形或无形的，看不见了，可用于与上帝的意图。
真棒嘉利！
哇......感谢，嘉利。 井说，和一些非常好的信息。 你犯了一个很好的点，当你说我们不应该指望材料的祝福，跟随耶稣时，我一直在想这个角度来看来自何处。
我不一定相信，但是，我们的文化“的要求，”永远适合与完美的计划，神为我们行。 有时会，但我愿意打赌，更多的时候不是神对我们生活的理想计划不包括持有一个典型的工作，确保我们有一个在我们头上的屋顶。 这不是上帝不会在这些方面为我们提供了，但我不相信上帝总是为我们提供了适合我们的文化内的方式，或总是有我们的计划，在符合文化规范。
我觉得牺牲自我的方式，无视我们的文化告诉我们，什么是适当的，当我活着，我往往是因为许多分心不再适用时，我只是给他们远离神。 如果我决定从字面上放弃我的房子，并有信心，上帝会为我提供，我将不断依靠他给我提供我需要的住房。 我相信，我们对神的依赖越多，越接近我们对他和我们之间的关系，更好地与他同在。 在同一时间，如果我们知道神要我们牺牲的东西，但拒绝做它，因为它违背了文化的要求，我们是最肯定的犯罪。
您的想法？
我奋斗的财富和基督徒生活的问题。 新约，特别是毫不含糊地谴责在其财富。 “圣经”中的排序似乎是说，如果你是富裕的，你缺少的船。 我们呼吁基督徒在一个相互支持的社会，这将最终意味着放弃我们的财富到有需要的人。
在同一时间，我想要的玩具。 生命是用金钱更容易，尤其是在我们所处的，但我知道，我应该让更多远离这样一个破碎的资本主义制度。 在比较，大多数美国家庭许姆和我都选择（都心甘情愿地和出必要性）生活更加省吃俭用。 但我们可以做的更好。
我想，当我们在看经文，我们看到周围的财富背后的新旧约的不确定性的几种不同的有理数。
1）当我们有足够的钱，我们不太可能将在神我们的信任。 金钱成了我们的信仰和我们永恒的关注中心。 这里的问题是偶像崇拜的问题。
2）“圣经”希望我们的生活更加社区比我们现在要做的。 基督徒是寻求相互支持对方。 收集起来为自己的财富和你的家人隐瞒社会。 甚至当我们在“圣经”提供看它是不是保持在黑色的教堂，但去给穷人，而不是提供。
最近（二月'09）我众发出了一个信其成员由于预算短缺（短缺，我们继续体验）。 来函，来电，讨论教会的成员的需要，放置在Godand的他们的信任，给他们的钱到教会对马克的福音。 “不要把你的钱蛾消耗，但在天上的事。”信中描绘的成员，教会作为一个拜偶像的钱谁隐瞒。 当我指出，教会并没有放置其在神的信任，在写这封信，我被忽略了。 但现代教会的财富委托给它的使用和目的的认识已经改变了。 当我们看我们如何花我们的钱90％，更多的去运营成本。 通常小于3％的使命，穷人和有需要的人士。
一些好点，埃德。 和我完全同意你所说的一切。 这是一个有趣的点，你做了关于共同生活，我沉吟前几次，但我觉得我太贪婪追求。 我参观了在大学的小社区生活的社会，尽管很多人，他们是怪人（他们可能在某些方面），很明显，我认为这是他们做的一件事，他们与大家分享的一切其他并没有这样的事“拥有”什么，因为一切都属于该组。 这也许更接近（但不一定完全理想）耶稣会。
我也有点后仰最近琢磨的地方，我应该给我的钱。 我真的不认为我永远到达的地步，我不给钱的教会，并把钱直接给需要帮助的，而不是可以证明，但它刺激我看到小我的十分之一，是真正的去有需要的。 我们必须明白，在某些方面，我们的资金见证业务，但在这个方向我们已经走了太远。 我相信教会的需要，更牺牲在给穷人，以及，无论是否在未来的资金充裕或不。
这是很好的，听到你，埃德。 谢谢你的回应。 :)
您好贾森！ 看到约翰卫斯理的马太6:19，特别是11点...
http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/28/~~V
我同意，在许多方面，我们当代基督徒可以而且应该更加节衣缩食的生活，给我们有什么比为自己囤积财富，而。 请理解，这不是文化的“要求”我的描述，但我们的文化如何共享一个标准的生活和互动的潜协议。 我也喜欢群体生活的想法，有些人可能认为这是我们如何生活在我们的家庭，在亚利桑那州Linnie目前。 共同生活是不太复杂的非西方社会中更为普遍和成功。 从第16 c欧洲或美国20Ç有人想不明白如何共用共享工程，以及如何在这些社区的人发生冲突时，通过他们之间的分歧。
非常有趣的谈话。 这是一个很大的话题，可以很容易地在整个硕士水平的课程（事实上，我知道它已经）。 所以，我不会重新状态已经已经说过 - 我同意，它的大部分。 然而，让我指出，我看到一些错误的说法。
首先，耶稣的调用一个特定的人放弃他并不自动意味着耶稣要大家做同样的。 当耶稣告诉富有的人给了他在马太19时21分贫困，耶稣说，因为他知道，这是富人的财富，使他从神。 然而，耶稣并没有作出同样的建议撒在路加福音19日，只答应偿还他偷了（虽然溢价），不问撒给了这一切，甚至称赞撒。
第二，最初你提出的问题是“完全圣洁的。”虽然没有专门在谈话中引用的，大部分的谈话，似乎被周围的想法，可以完全圣洁。 任何建议，完全可以在这生命的圣洁，是显著误导，精神失常，或披着羊皮的狼。 等同于耶稣的呼吁是“完全成圣。”圣洁的“完美”的旅程我们，我们已经到达的地方，这是更好地看到，这将是神学不准确。 保罗清楚地表明，他犯罪后，他是有道理的。 他不会自称是“完全成圣。”也许，这似乎像一个小点，但让我清楚，这是危险的谈论“完全圣洁”在此生活。 这是一个谎言的骗子。 我知道一个谎言，有时通过一些教堂。
在这两点，问题就变成了我对金钱，财富和物质财富的态度是否我亲近神或没有阻止我向神靠拢？ 拉我走神是什么罪。
如果我没有真正给予我的生命交给基督，这意味着他，我给了我财富，也是我只是对他所属于的经理。 我们清楚地被允许从中受益，我们为他管理，但问题就变成了我们的方式，他希望用他的钱吗？
换句话说，拥有一辆凌志我精神上的伤害时，有饿死这么多的人在世界上？ 也许，也许不是。 如果我给了一百万美元，每年向穷人和仍然可以买得起雷克萨斯，这是确定的？ 采取在14马克，耶稣似乎与穷人漠不关心，是与“浪费”的香水，值得一年的薪水是确定。
I raise these issues, more out of a sense of showing the complexity of the issue, than to say what my opinion is. As I said, I agree with much of what has been written. But in the end this is not a “one size fits all” topic.
Here are some things that I do believe:
Some are called to give all they have away.
Some are called to manage their wealth in a way that honors God without giving it all away.
I believe it is very easy to let wealth/possessions get in the way of our relationship with God.
I believe we are to do all the good on this earth that we can.
Personally, there have been times in my life when I have struggled financially because of being paid a very low salary, now I am more financially secure, and I can honestly say that for me being poorer and having less material things did not make me holier or closer to God. Having more money today means I give away a lot more money.
I think this answers all the questions in your original post.
I love all of you and love that you are having this discussion.
谢谢你，周杰伦，为使更多的信息和智慧的讨论。 我知道，我往往会带来不同的角度比大多数，当然，我推迟对这个话题您的知识。
我也同意：在我最困难的时候，我能感觉到我的信仰和连接到神的加强，但它在某些黑暗的时刻也消退的时候，我的一些经验或什么，我从他们身上学习的目的提出质疑。
我记得听到，信仰不能成长过程中没有一些疑问。
我很高兴我们能知道神，即使有瞬间时，我们觉得最beleagured。
谢谢你，爸爸，昨天琥珀曾问我怎么了，我以为你会回应的问题，思考了一下，而我说，你会说“如果神呼召你付出一切，那么你的线条沿着后应给予的一切。 但上帝并不一定要求每个人付出一切。“
这是你的回应的一部分，但显然还有很多它。 关于“整个成圣”，这是一件不幸定期在拿撒勒教会，我拒绝相信。 我不相信，即使片刻的任何人都可以从罪里得了释放，这显然是认为可能是由许多在拿撒勒教会。 我很高兴知道，我不是这样的信念只有一个，因为最近我肯定那里的弃儿。
我个人也觉得给我的一切都远离。 说实话，我无法看到自己真正做，但它似乎是我缺乏信心，这是我回。 我觉得，虽然我最后的共识，对主题的个人，将它通常是什么：这不是我的工作，决定叫什么我身边的其他人都做。 我会感谢上帝。
嘉利，我要读约翰韦斯利把明天当我不穿。 再次感谢您的见解。 :)
我同意与杰伊。 我很高兴，贾森有“缺乏信心”，因为如果他真的给了所有一切，并想活下去，生活方式，他不得不成为一个新教的和尚，离开他的家人...：（
No…you'd just have to suffer with me… ;)
杰森，我知道你很聪明，和你同意我的看法的事实证明它！ 琥珀，也！
我相信，相信，一个是或可能是“完全圣洁”是一个危险的位置，并在长远的伤害。 这是教会的人说你是不是一个基督徒，如果你不说方言相似。 成圣应看到作为一个成长的过程中，从来没有能够说，我已经“达到了它。”
现在，关于您的通话感“给了这一切”和“缺乏信心。”也许你的含糊之处并不是缺乏信仰，也许这是一个清晰的通话周围缺乏。 作为一个牧师（爸爸），我会鼓励你去思考你有这个呼叫感。 审视它，看看它下面。 对于一些人是在“有更多的”比别人的内疚。 但对于大多数人来说，我觉得这是一个不屈服他们生活的某些领域，以基督的症状呼叫放弃一切的意识。 上帝希望你们所有的人，不是神，希望所有的东西 。 好辛苦看你生活在什么部分，你要保持控制，神要在工作中你，但你不能让他吗？ 事实是，它很容易放弃的东西比给神完全控制我们生活的各个领域。
我不能回答你的问题。 但是，例如，这里是我说的是什么：你的呼叫放弃你的东西感掩盖更大的通话对您的生活，放弃你的高薪工作，去温床？ 这个问题涉及几个方面，你和上帝可能需要搏斗过你的生活。
认为它的另一种方式，你会产生最大的好？ 你能做些什么，将有其他人永恒的利益？ 永恒的效果会赠送金钱或东西吗？
有些人被称为放弃自己的东西。 但是，这是容易放弃你的自我。
主在领导一定direction.He我们是非常具体明确，使我部“养活”他的羊星期六。 早晨。 你有我想知道我犯罪在较昂贵的GR混合。 土耳其与牛肉！ 感谢Jasons，一个帮助我爸爸！ ;）
哇，爸爸，你读入我的脑海里相当深。 我的朋友斯科特·惠伦向我提出了昨天，我有一个传教士的心，这已经很清楚，我说实话，很长一段时间。 我想，也许，如果上帝正在试图推我这个方向。 我不得不承认那部分利益，我在此“放弃一切”的主题是密切相关的概念，或许，在某种程度上，形状或形式的传教士。
因此，我认为你已经成功地撬开了我更大的图片，在这里。 我很犹豫，分享它，因为老实说，我很害怕的人以为我是个疯子（我觉得我是个疯子自己）。
无论如何，我祈祷它。 但我相信，上帝已经定制在过去的几年中，我（可能是我的整个生命）准备像这样。 我不打它，但我不积极寻找它。 我还在寻找踢头。
I didn't have a chance to read all of the comments, I only read the main article so if this stuff has already been said or if this goes against everything already said, I apologize. In reading this article for the sake of reading the article, I'm totally in your corner Jason. The points you make, the way the conversation sounds, I'd be a heretic to claim anything otherwise. However, in being a part of that discussion in the Bible Study, I'ma little surprised that this is what you walked away with. In reading the article, I feel almost ashamed to say that I led that Bible Study, so let me try to clarify what I believe, what I was hearing in the discussion and once again apologize that this did not come out clearly.
Not giving up everything we have is a sin. I have no struggle with this. God does not say that it is okay for us to keep. The call of the Christian life is surrender. This is also what I personally believe of sanctification. Entire sanctification is not entire perfection, but entire surrender. Not complete perfection, but complete surrender. Nazarenes talk about this being a point and a process. I remember the point in time when I fully surrendered everything I have to God. From that point, it is a continued journey in Christian maturity. I do not believe we can reach that point of Christian perfection on this side of heaven. I do believe that we can reach the point of total surrender to God and his plan for our lives. This is where I believe the discussion should have gone, in particular, these verses. “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.” This passage that we discussed was never about the material possessions. The folks that he was writing to had made plans that did not include God in any way shape or form. There was no surrender, it was all about them. What is unfortunate is that many times in life, we hit the crossroads of decision: will I go my way or God's way. We KNOW that we should always go God's way. 永远！ Yet, there are times where we dabble in temptation, we say “Yes” to ourselves, and because of this say “No” to God. Anytime we say “No” to God is sin.
Going back to the material possessions, we also talked about the rich young ruler and how Jesus called him to give up everything he had. I don't believe this was because he had possessions, but rather his possessions had him. Anytime there is something that is going to get in the way of us growing closer to God, it's better to get rid of it. However, it is possible to have possessions without them having you. Even though I have a house to live in, food on the table, ways to get around town, and many other things that I probably don't need (if we really want to get down to what a need is), I know in my heart that everything that I have right now is God's. I'm simply managing God's resources. He owns it all. It's a pretty overwhelming thought that He would even trust me! The challenge I have to face and be accountable for is: how am I managing what God has entrusted to me? This life is not about advancing our own name, but His. How am I using the physical blessings he has entrusted to me to advance His name, and in what ways am I mismanaging what He has entrusted me with, because I'm sure there are many ways. This is the constant journey of seeking and surrendering. This is why I view the sanctified life as a continued process, it's a daily surrender.
I do agree that in many ways we have no idea what it is to live a self-sacrificing life. Most times when we give, we give out of surplus, not out of sacrifice. The call you're talking about is a radical one, and Jesus was radical. If we did give up everything we have, we would know what it is to depend on God.
Here's where I land. God wants us to make it in this life, and to make it victoriously. While perfection (no more sin) is a tough thought, I do believe that we can have victory over sin. We're not called to live a defeated life, but an empowered life in Christ. This cannot happen if there are things standing in the way. Those things are not always material possessions. They can be ambitions, dreams, selfish desires. This goes back to the original call to complete and total surrender. If God is at the center of everything that we do and everything that we are, then the way we spend our time and resources, the way we treat those around us, the care and compassion that we show is simply an extension of God living through us in this world. Our goal is to make a positive impact on people for him. So, give up everything we have? 绝。 It wasn't ours in the first place!
LOL黛比，你是太有趣了！ 斯科特，感谢您的评论。 我希望你能读通过的意见的时间。 他们是非常有趣！ :)
谢谢你，斯科特，你的想法。 我道歉，如果我的讨论的误解导致一些无效的假设，如果作为一个结果，他们误导。 它从来就不是我的意图妨碍或标记为错误的人，我只是想尝试和了解更深层次的东西。 很显然，我误解讨论一些事情。
诚然，我曾在过去这样做的倾向。
此外，虽然你带领研究圣经，你显然不是唯一的一个共享。 因此，没有办法，我说的直接反映在你或你的信念;原谅我没有直接出来，说这在我原来的职位。
我非常欣赏的讨论，我们有我们的圣经学习期间，我不认为任何人的神学观点受到任何损坏。 我认为他们是健康的讨论，帮助我们灵性成长。
关于你的神学的反应，在大多数情况下，我同意你所说的一切。 唯一我仍挣扎与成圣，但我觉得我的问题大多有语义的和不重要的。
感谢分享您的看法，斯科特。 我想想，我越意识到，这不是我的工作，决定如何神呼召我周围的人，我只真的有担心上帝是如何打电话给我，这是努力不够。
Hey Jason,
Definitely no need for apologies. I didn't take anything as a personal attack or anything like that. In reading your thoughts, it made a lot more sense than where the discussion went on Wednesday night. I was hearing more of the other guys comments I think than the heart of your discussion.
I join you on a journey in search of truth. I've done my best to not wave the denominational flag on Wednesday nights because I don't want that to be the foundation of our discussions. If we study the Bible for truth, naturally that should coincide with what we find in our beliefs. This doesn't always happen, and I find myself bending denominational definitions (ie entire sanctification) to make them what I feel is Biblical, thus being able to be accurate and also supportive of the Church of the Nazarene. I don't know if this is right or wrong, but my journey is one set for truth.
I truly appreciate your input. My response was not one out of being defensive (although it might have sounded that way), but rather trying to clarify where I felt that passage was going. We'll continue the discussion, and we'll be better for it. Thanks for seeking truth and for presenting a forum to search that out in a community.
Scott, I agree that a journey set for truth is far wiser than a journey set out to fulfill the definitions of any particular denomination, and I don't see anything wrong with questioning the theories that our current denomination promotes. In fact, I see it as a spiritual requirement. Therefore, I believe that we are taking the best approach here. I don't think we're attempting to “bend” the Nazarene beliefs; I believe we're attempting to question them to understand them better. And I don't think that anyone in their right mind believes absolutely everything that their personal denomination preaches as truth.
I'll look forward to our discussion this Wednesday. :)
Jason: Protestant Monks… HA!! that will never happen… Don't think for a second that the monastic life is free of material or worldly desires.
Nazarenes… Tom thought they were a variety of citrus and asked when they were in season.
But seriously, folks!
Jason, God calls us to do His work in a variety of ways. Missions require a very deep, unfettered commitment. I have heard stories of people with families going out into remote areas of the world with varying degrees of success. However, missions can also take place right in your own back yard, too. It can be extremely fulfilling for all involved or may cost you your life. The caricature of people boiling in large pots isn't too much of a hyperbole!
I've always been extremely impressed with the global missions arm of the United Methodist Church, UMCOR. Faith demonstrated through works conveys a very powerful message. People's hearts are moved much more through these genuine acts of Christian love and faith such as providing relief, health care, building infrastructure, and other ways. Not sure if your father had mentioned it but I was in the process of applying for an UMCOR post in Guatemala just before I got the job in Arizona.
But be aware, the world has been heavily mission-ized since the early history of the Christian Church. The very people you are trying to reach may be suspicious of the intent or motives behind these efforts and may perceive them as having other agendas. Many missions become derailed through previous unscrupulous missionaries, a lack of understanding of the local culture, and regional political issues.
Continue to seek, ask questions, and learn. Don't be in too much of a hurry to blindly leap, but take the opportunities as they present themselves.
真正的好东西。 It is very cool recognizing Jesus shinning through you Jason & thats what its all about,keep seeking, (I know you will) He will make it clearer & clearer.
Good stuff, man I missed being challenged like this – my faith is very much lacking due to the fact that I cannot find a good church home. I'm glad that you guys have found something that seems to be challenging you and even helping you grow spiritually. Anyone know of a good church in Denver? Seems like everyone I go to misses my generation completely. I can hang out with 30 somethings – and then there's sometimes college – but there's never really a young adult group. I'd always be the one starting it if it was actually going to happen. I'm not in a place where I want to lead a group, but to listen and learn. Something that could create this type of conviction in me would be awesome… otherwise I'm just “going through the motions.” Yay for that :(
Thanks, Debby. I hope so…
Karrie, my critical heart immediately jumps to logic and reason and I can come up with ten thousand reasons not to step out. Now that I've thought about it, I don't really believe that the traditional “pack up and leave for [your favorite heathen country here] and spread the love of Jesus” is necessarily the best approach to missions, but I suppose it would be an option if God pushed me in that direction. I don't really see myself ever doing that in particular, however.
I've learned these last few years that my passion is definitely for youth, and youth for some reason are extremely attracted to me. If there's one thing that's obvious, it's that God has given me a gift specifically with youth, and He's likely to use me in this area.
The problem is, I don't really see myself as a youth pastor. I think it would drive me nuts; I don't think I could stand to work for the church. Too many restrictions. Too many meetings. Too much politics. My current youth ministry position is volunteer, and as a youth leader I can't see it working any other way. God may have different plans, however.
We'll see what kind of opportunities he has up his sleeves.
Doing God's work with youth doesn't require a full time mission or church supervision. You just have to be available and understanding to work with youth. Remember youth are a very pivotal time in their lives as they explore the paths they will take into adulthood. Being God'sbest example for the youth in your life is the best way to approach the mission. And yes, this is a mission as much as packing up your family and heading to the remote areas of the world. But also be aware, there are some youth that can metaphorically boil you in a pot, just as much as tribe of Yanomamo!
Hahahaha, oh yes. Yes they can. I've yet to allow that, though… ;)
God's currently using me in these ways; it's just that I'm craving a bit more right now. I'm anxious and curious to see what's in store…
Give everything? Jesus did call us to give up everything, but the only thing we really have to give is our hearts or our self. Jesus said, “what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” This is the only thing we have that we can give to God, our souls, our will, our love. Everything else we have, talents, time, resources etc. already belongs to God. They are on loan to us as stewards. God has loaned these to us to be in partnership with us in the journey of life.
Well said, Brock; yes, our souls are really the only thing we can give to God, as he owns all we have. I guess the real question I had was whether God wanted us to always give away the physical gifts he has loaned us to others. I've concluded, though, that this isn't always what he wants us to do (though we don't do it nearly enough).
Hi Jason! We heard a great sermon from our Pastor Jane Tews in Tempe this morning. I stand corrected regarding the antiquity of the belief that God favors his faithful with tangible assets. This goes back to Deuteronomy. Jews who were right with God were blessed with material and spiritual gifts. If one was not right with God, it was believed that they would suffer. (Aside: But then we have the Book of Job… A man right with God and faithful, yet he suffers much from the disucssions between God and his archangels. In the end he is restored, but a lot befalls him in spite of his constancy. ) Our Northern Renaissance and Protestant Work ethic do come out of this, too.
Jane's sermon this morning was about stewardship. Yes, that time of year… But she wanted to talk about the different perceptions of the text regarding money and evil. She wanted to clarify that the pursuit of wealth as a means to its own ends was what separates a person from the Divine. Our wealth, collectively, is how we manifest God's work on Earth.
She spoke about how the young wealthy ruler had approached Jesus and asked how he might enter the Kingdom of Heaven. According to Talmudic law, the young man was right with God and had been richly blessed. Yet he still felt a separation from God. When Jesus looked on this man and his dilemma, he did so with love. He understood deeply how this man obeyed God's Laws and kept him self ritually pure. In Jane's opinion what Jesus did not like was how wealthy land onwers of the time extorted too much from their tenant farmers by over charging them for the use of the land. It was in this manner she felt that the young ruler and his class in Hebrew society made their money off those less fortunate.
So I think you're still OK… Unless of course you ask too much from those who look to you for their survival. But that doesn't mean you sell yourself short to those who need your techno skills…
YOU STILL NEED TO FEED THAT DARLING BABY!! And he has to go to college someday.
Make your choices wisely!
Haha…yeah I promise I won't gamble away the financial stability (or instability) of my family. At least…not unless God pushes me in that direction.
But Reese could stand to go hungry for a few days… ;)
And I'll work on actually paying my servants this month… ;)
In googling this subject, I came across this post and comments. I have been listening to David Platt's sermons on being Radical…and he makes some great points in them….and it causes me to struggle….although my family and I are considered “poor” according to our terms in this country, we are without debt and live truly better than most in the world. We don't have brand new vehicles and we repair/add to our home as money and time allows. We don't have all the *best* but we live a truly comfortable simple life. But as I focus on scriptures where Jesus says that we should sell everything (like in Luke 12:32-34) then I think we definitely have tooooo much! It's such a struggle…as I want to do what is right…but how much is too much?
Thanks for sharing your situation, Katy. I feel like I know even less on this subject than when I wrote the post, but I have learned a few things; the first of which is that the more we give away to God, the more we will be blessed. However, I've learned that giving something away to God often means giving it to the poor, but not always. There are things that are important to our ministry that would crippling to give away. An online ministry wouldn't be very productive without a computer, for example. We have already given that computer away to God if we are primarily using it for His work.
I think more important than dwelling on how much we have is where our attitude is and our heart lies. If our possessions are more important to us than our relationship with God, then it would do us some good to give them away, and God will bless us for it. However, if God is our focus He will guide us and we will live according to His will simply because He is providing our primary direction.
One last important thing to note is tithing. The Bible plainly declares that we should be giving a minimum of 10% of our income. No matter what our financial status, our giving should never fall below this mark. It is considered a “minimum,” however; we are not “off the hook” after 10%. The more we give, the more we will be blessed.
If God has placed this on your heart, then I believe He is asking you to give more. Whether he is asking you to give more of your time or finances, though, is between you and the Lord. :)
If you are living by the Law, the 10% rule is actually 100%.
Choose Grace instead. Living by grace doesn't mean we should stop doing good nor stop tithing.
Yes, Christ calls us to be perfect and whole, but this cannot be done by giving away all your possessions to the poor.
“it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Read further in the verse – With man, it is it impossible. But with God, all things are possible.
To me the story about the rich young man is a story about LAW vs GRACE like most stories in the New Testament. The LAW – If you want to be perfected by following the commandments, then in order to be perfect you have to give away all your possessions to the poor. God however has provided a new solution. The GRACE – He sent his only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Following Christ and doing good is no longer out of fear of hell or to acheive a ticket to heaven. We follow Christ and do good out of gratitude because he saved and loved us 1st.
I feel really guilty. My husband just encountered a young man pan-handling and preached the gospel to him. He was thrilled to hear that he would be welcomed in our church. My husband told him that we used to be drug addicts and that without Jesus we would have never had the will to stop using drugs and give our lives to Christ. My husband ran in the house to tell me all about it and told me he was going to give the young man one of our Bibles and our last ten dollars. Since we do get paid tommorow it wouldn't have been all that bad. But I didn't want to give it up because I would have had to walk home from the school. (our transit system is on strike.) I refused to give it to him and thought he was acting abit crazy, he was angry with me and said “wouldn't it be worth our last dollar to save the man's soul?” I didn't reply but as he walked out the door to meet the young man I began to feel guilty and quietly thought “yes it would be.” Know that I think about it I am sure that the Lord would have provided for us.
Chelsea…I know the feeling. I've been there more than once. But you've already been forgiven…don't dwell on your past. Look at it as an opportunity to give in some other way… :)